Now there's some real current data...

YGTBK,

So what is your point?

Perhaps you are unaware of the concept of 'precendent'. A precedent is something that is "law" or "practice" until it is overturned.

Is it your position that since the quotes above are old, they are no longer "NEA/Big ED" policy? That is an absurd position to take.

You want something current? Look at how aggressively the education establishment is pushing "mental health screening".

If anything, one could argue that even a totalitarian like Dewey never imagined the power and clout that has been attained by BIG ED.

Hit and run anonymous posts seem clever...until some one responds.

If you have a case, at least make an attempt to prove it up.

Easy there big fella...it's your post. I'm certainly not as clever as you, but I'd think if you really thought there was value as precedent, you'd post something from this decade maybe? This stuff makes great history, but it hasn't been in any classroom I've seen in my lifetime.

YGTBK,

Do you really want to go down this road? How about the simple advent of B.C.E. instead of B.C.?

I know crowing about the Pennsylvania decision is all the rage right now, but I've read Behe & Schroeder. They too propose a theory, and their thinking is every bit as robust as Darwin's. (there is some evidence Darwin may agree with them)

Leaving any "divine" issues aside, the advent of the Big Bang ought to raise a few issues for the Humanist crowd. We won't even attempt to divine the probabilities necessary for the nuclear strong and weak forces to mesh so perfectly.

We all grew up indoctrinated with falsified "Gypsy Moth" stories and "100 monkeys typing would eventually produce Shakespeare" nonsense. Please make a case that this wasn't every bit as 'theocratic' as the Church in 1600.

The mere exclusion of ID from a classroom (any class room) is yet more evidence that if a religion isn't being promoted, one certainly is being attacked. This alone is "religious doctrine."

Are you seeking a "Memo to Satan" or some other smoking gun from the vaults of the NEA or one of Lewin's "Training Labs?" I doubt there is one. If that's your standard of proof, maybe you have me beat.

Further, are you really willing to bet that similar quotes couldn't be pulled out of any Ed School in the country?

I don't know YG..., you seem plenty clever. Come on! Level with all of us. You have the votes. You have the $500 billion tax extracted tithes and the certified priesthood.

Just level with us (or yourself). It's a church. Just admit it.

(Sorry if I assume you are some sort of edu-ratchik.)

Wow...you sure have a short fuse! I didn't ask for any proof...just an argument that was based on something maybe a little younger than my mother!

I think you have the NEA confused with the ACLU...

YG,

Spare me the "short fuse" stuff. I'm happy as can be, and type with this stuff with a smile on my face. (the fuse ain't even lit yet)

I'm just a dedicated activist who doesn't feel the inclination (now anyway) to back down from what, quite frankly, is a fairly weak argument on your part.

I've addressed your "age of quote" argument with...

1. The age of a quote doesn't mean it isn't policy.

and

2. The policy is clearly still in force (see numerous stories/yr. of BIG ED aggressively removing/attacking any mention of religion - Christianity in particular - from schools.

I've not seen you address any of those points, You have merely repeated your first point 3 times.
___

I don't confuse the NEA with the ACLU at all. Both are influential members of the "Vast Left Wing Conspiracy" and we in the VRWC are doing all we can to thwart both of them.

Better fed than RED.

YGTBKM is looking for more modern quotes... something younger than his mother.
(Your mother was born post 1973? How old are you?)

I don't carry quotes around "just in case", but the quotes above are representative of the thoughts expressed by my professors in classes that were taken post-1999. I think the teachers and administrators here in Richmond, VA are generally more religious and conservative than these quotes, but administrators and teachers I know throughout the northeast and middle Atlantic states have a wide array of views... from moderate to avowedly communist. It is assumed in the faculty lounge that no teachers are Republican. It is assumed that if any are liberarian, it is for the social freedoms, not the economic ones. When school board members express support for ID, they are openly mocked in the faculty meeting. When school board members suggest socialist policies be imposed on students and teachers, they are invited to speak at faculty meetings, with no opposition speaker permitted.

I would love to know (in all seriousness) where the classrooms are that you claim are free of these types of sentiments.

OK, OK...I guess I meant younger than me, thanks for pointing that out. And actually, some data would do; quotes aren't really necessary. My classroom experience is all in Illinois.

From your dialog, I extracted 2 very impotant items; first, you seem to enjoy a very diverse set of associates from moderate to communist. Nice to know you don't lump them all together as "edu-ratchik's". second, you seem to make quite a few assumptions in your faculty lounge. To avoid the potential for misunderstanding, you might try a little open dialog; it goes a long way over assumptions. With such a diverse population in that lounge, can you really rely on all that assumptive reasoning?

YG,

What has been going on here is "open dialogue", despite that fact that you may not like my use of words like "edu-ratchik."

My experience tells me that over 90% of teachers are anti-school choice, anti-religious, and anti-market (in general). The fact that I assign a derogatory name to this mindset is simply a function of my scintillating and entertaining communication style. (if I do say so myself)

As Wulf's post added yet more evidence (note that I didn't use the word "proof") to my bolster the original point of this post, one wonders what, if any, amount evidence you would accept.

Is it your position that schools have no intent to indoctrinate? Do you have a position on this at all?

BTW, while some would call assumptive reasoning "prejudice," (and possibly be correct), another could point to all sorts of brain research that indicates that 'prejudging' things is simply how our mind works.

This is not an excuse for bigotry or mistreatment, but simple truth that we must be conscious of at all times, if we are to turn off the "default" assumption.

I have been invited to talk to few classes about school reform (choice) by an open-minded teacher. But that same teacher acknowledged that if the school administration had been aware of the content of my presentation in advance, I probably wouldn't have been allowed in the class.

Are all teacher's edu-ratchiks? No, but it is the way to bet. I await another of your oblique posts with anticipation.

Hello Mr. Behrend:

Regarding your above quote, "My experience tells me that over 90% of teachers are anti-school choice, anti-religious, and anti-market (in general)"

My experience has been the opposite: In the small, midwestern, blue-collar town that I live in, I would have to say the opposite is true.

90% of the teachers in our small town ARE religious (if you call going to church / belonging to a church as religious and not going to church not religious). (This is sort of mean, but may I remind you that your radio program broadcasts during many peoples' "church time". Thus, people, if they didn't know you, could call you "anti-religous", too. That would not be fair, as you probably don't choose to broadcast at that time - you have "higher ups" that tell you when you'll be broadcasting - but it could be said by someone who didn't like your views.)

Many of the teachers in our little town are small-business owners or their spouses own / work at small businesses (if that makes someone "pro-market" enough, I'm not sure, but I think it's a pretty good indicator).

Believe it or not, many teachers are interested in school choice. School choice actually gives a bigger voice to teachers in their schools and classrooms! Presently, it's my opinion that we truly have very little voice in much of the process.

No matter how good I am at my job, or how many kids I could get to take more science or math classes at my school - it's my higher-ups that make all of those decisions for me. My "bosses" tell me what classes I'm teaching, who I'm teaching them to, how long my classes will last, that I can't do certain things that I want to do -fieldtrips, certain projects. Even if I work in that school for 30 years, the administration will still tell me exactly what I can or can't do.

Lastly, "indoctrination" - I don't have any fancy quotes to back this up, just my personal experience, but no teacher I know is trying to "indoctrinate" kids. We're just trying to do the best we can to teach science, math, English, history ... Just because some educational "big-wig" spouts off some lame gibberish, do you really think that we all believe this or jump to follow it? Don't you think that many of us would disagree with such stupid statements as those that started this orginal post? If I could personally take back Mr. Chester's or Mr. Rugg's silly statements, I certainly would - but, of course I can't. I certainly don't think that those statements are good representations of myself or the teachers I know and the work we put in.

Even regarding your other post about silly education professors - do you really think that we took each of those people's opinions seriously? Most of us took our education classes because they were a requirement - a hoop to jump through - to get to do what we really wanted to do. Many K-12 teachers sincerely wish that our education classes better prepared us for the reality of 35 kids in a classroom! (If you can get something better into national teacher preparation - more power to ya!! 90% of us would be for it!)

Sorry this post got so long.
Always a pleasure to discuss it all with you.
Sincerly,
Denise

Denise,

This is what I meant by not only different worldviews, but different experiences.

You are not the first teacher who has pointed this out to me, and I'm sure you will not be the last.

I suppose I could moderate my rhetoric, but every time I think about it, I read another story of what kind of crap BIG ED is pulling in Illinois and elsewhere.

Let us simply take your above examples and apply them to the number of inner city teachers and suburban teachers (the one's I have experience with) If I'm wrong about the ratios of Denises to educrat ringwraiths, I'm not off by much.

When I see an organization called "Public Schools Teachers for School Choice" that openly attacks the NEA and Boreds of Edu-ma-cation, I'll reverse my broad critiques.

For those teachers who are reading this and saying "Do you have any idea of the retaliation..." I simply say "Thanks, you prove my point.

Regarding your argument that teachers don't "indoctrinate", I guess I have to take your life experience into account. I'm basing my views on my own experience as well (along with other data)

Why is it that some 60% of high school students polled believe that "the 1st amendment goes too far" and that "government should have more control over the news (2002 poll).

How could that outcome happen absent "indoctrination?" How about PC? How can you argue that PC isn't "indoctrination."

I understand that fish don't "see" water. They are swimming in it.

Again Denise, you have no idea how much appreciate your participation here. As Ideologically opposed to the current system, I do attempt to look at the other point of view, and you've done a good job presenting yours.

Come back often.

Thanks Mr. Behrend! I will try to check back periodically.

For Pete's sake, call me Bruno